(Apologies, but own contributions to this discussion may be largely in english, as my own irish is likely not up to standard for complex issues involved).Guliolopez 12:14, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Issues as I understand them:[athraigh foinse]
Position of Úsáideoir:Panu Petteri Höglund[athraigh foinse]
Prolific contributor. Generally interested in improving articles on the irish language VP with respect to content that is gramatically correct and NPOV. Would prioritise content and correctness over style/layout/hyperlinks/etc/.
Position of Úsáideoir:Cuir Mise An Locht Ar Na Tuistí[athraigh foinse]
More casual contributor. Generally interested in extending irish language VP generally with respect to inter-connectivity of existing articles. May compromise on language if it means a more simplified link between articles, and may leave it to other more knowledgable editors to resolve language issues.
"May compromise on language"...tá an-áibhéil déanta ar sin, measaim féin. Tharlaíodh sé, ach i ndáiríre, cá mhinic?
Cuir Mise An Locht Ar Na Tuistí 15:13, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Tharla sé gach aon uair. Panu Petteri Höglund 15:17, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Agus thairis sin, is minic agus is ró-mhinic a chuir sé a chuid seanbhotún ar ais i ndiaidh domsa iad a cheartú. Mura sabaitéireacht agus loitiméireacht é sin, ní lá go maidin é. Panu Petteri Höglund 15:22, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Next steps[athraigh foinse]
Before we do anything else, would recommend we confirm the above. (Without writing an essay). Guliolopez 12:14, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
What I would like to add:
- I have several times tried to contact Cuir Mise... on his talk page, pointing out the systematic errors in his Irish, and I have even pointed out that I am entirely willing to make use of any materials on the Web he finds relevant regarding a certain article. I have adviced him to use the talk page to give me advice, so that I could work any additional material into the articles. He has ignored the proposal.
- I am not against his adding links, but the fact is that he seems unable to add a link without compromising the grammar. As he has entirely ignored my advice, I can only conclude that he is sabotaging the Wiki wilfully. He seems to add hyperlinks just in order to give his sabotage a bona fide appearance, or to induce himself the feeling that he is actually doing any good.
- To start with, I took him as a bona fide editor, more enthusiastic than capable. However, I have successively lost any confidence in him, and am indeed convinced that he does not mean well, but is rather bent on damaging the Wikipedia and, by extension, the language cause, just for the sheer fun of it.
- He seems to have had a personal grudge against me, and has attacked and vandalized my edits systematically, even before the present "war" broke out.
- There is way too much bad Irish floating around already. If we want to save the language, we must take it seriously. I have spent the last ten years of my life studying Gaeltacht Irish with the explicit goal of acquiring fluency and natural, idiomatic expression. If we want the Wikipedia to have a positive impact, this is the kind of Irish we should strive for, inside the bounds of the official standard.
- We have a reason to believe that Cuir Mise... is a person who was already banned from the English-language Wikipedia because of sabotage and POV-pushing.
To sum up:
- I see myself as a bona fide editor and want to work for a better Wiki, and I would like people to respect my contribution enough in order not to vandalize it wilfully. It is tedious to be compelled to correct the same grammatical errors over and over again, when you could instead go further, correct other articles, write and translate new articles and so on. I am not trying to keep my Irish for myself, quite the opposite: I want to share my knowledge with others, and am already working on the Gramadach na Gaeilge article in that purpose.
- I do not trust Cuir Mise... more than I can throw him, and this distrust is the result of cumulating evidence against his good will. I find it quite impossible to cooperate with him in any way. It's him or me, quite simply.Panu Petteri Höglund 14:57, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
"I have several times tried to contact Cuir Mise... on his talk page...":
GET A FUCKING LIFE and stop destroying other people's work. Panu Petteri Höglund 19:27, 11 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Keep off the pages I edit, or I'll raise a fucking hell. Panu Petteri Höglund 19:32, 11 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
"the fact is that he seems unable to add a link without compromising the grammar."
"To start with, I took him as a bona fide editor, more enthusiastic than capable. However, I have successively lost any confidence in him..."
As it seems idle to try to get anything across to you in Irish, please take note of this: The unhappy fact is, that you do not have enough Irish to even add links without murdering the grammar. Please stop vandalizing my writings, because what you doing can only be called vandalism.
Bhí sin ar an chéad lá.
"He seems to have had a personal grudge against me..."
"It's him or me, quite simply."
Níl an gotha seo cabhrach ar bith.
Cuir Mise An Locht Ar Na Tuistí 15:26, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Tá sé cineál spéisiúil go bhfágann mo dhuine an méid seo gan aird a thabhairt air:
Ar mhiste leat gan a bheith ag tabhairt drochíde don ghramadach ar leathanach Chogadh Carad na hÉireann. Le cead duit, níl tuiscint cheart agat go fóill ar úsáid cheart an ailt dheimhnigh sa Ghaeilge. Nuair atá ainmfhocal faoi réir ag ainmfhocal eile agus an t-alt deimhneach eatarthu, ní féidir alt a chur roimh an chéad fhocal acu a thuilleadh - is leor alt amháin leis an iomlán a dhéanamh deimhneach. Féach anseo:
Béarla: the people of the country (dhá "the") Gaeilge: muintir na tíre (níl ach aon alt amháin ann) mícheart ar fad: *an mhuintir na tíre (níl cead agat dhá alt a úsáid)
Níl ach aon eisceacht ann: tá "an mhuintir seo na tíre" ceart - má tá "seo", "sin" nó "úd" ann, is féidir an chéad "an" a chur ansin. Mar sin féin, níl sé mícheart cloí leis an bpríomhriail anseo ach an oiread: tá "muintir seo na tíre" ceart go leor freisin.
Dá réir sin, ní ceadmhach *"den Óglaigh na hÉireann" a úsáid. Is é "d'Óglaigh na hÉireann" an leagan ceart, gan ach aon alt amháin ansin.
Tá súil agam gur leor an nod don eolach.
Le dea-mhéin, Panu Petteri Höglund 18:06, 25 Aibreán 2006 (UTC)
- Uair eile: Tá tú ag déanamh dochair don ghramadach, agus mise díreach ag iarraidh bail éigin a chur ar an leathanach ó thaobh na teanga de. Mura n-éireoidh tú as anois, is é an tátal a bhainfidh mé as an scéal go bhfuil tú d'aon ogham ag iarraidh sabaitéireacht a dhéanamh ar mo chuid oibre, agus creid uaim go n-ardóidh mé an cheist sin i lárionad an chomhphobail. Panu Petteri Höglund 18:21, 25 Aibreán 2006 (UTC)
- Anois, tá mé ag éirí bréan breoite de seo. Níl tú ach ag sabaitéireacht gach aon dréacht de mo chuid féin. Níl an oiread Gaeilge agat is go mbeifeá in ann naisc shlachtmhara a chur isteach gan dochar a dhéanamh do ghramadach na teanga. Má tá rud éigin agat go pearsanta i m'aghaidh, cuir ríomhphost chugam, ach éirígh as an tsabaitéireacht. Panu Petteri Höglund 21:50, 25 Aibreán 2006 (UTC)
- As it seems idle to try to get anything across to you in Irish, please take note of this: The unhappy fact is, that you do not have enough Irish to even add links without murdering the grammar. Please stop vandalizing my writings, because what you doing can only be called vandalism. Do try to acquire a level of Irish that is as high as the level of your enthusiasm to contribute. But as the things are, I am terribly sorry to say that you seem to be unable to contribute with anything very constructive. Panu Petteri Höglund 21:57, 25 Aibreán 2006 (UTC)
- You are still unable to create links without distorting the grammar. Is it really too much to hope, that you put the basic form of the word on the left side of a vertical line, and keep my inflected form on the right side of the line? Don't you really know how to make Wikipedia links without distorting grammar? I am sick and tired of tidying up the grammar after you. It is my sincere opinion that you are doing more harm than good. Do try to take the trouble of reading a couple of books by native speakers and annotating them thoroughly, so as to find out about good Irish, and come back after one year, that will be quite enough to get going. Remember to get a copy of the unabridged version of Ó Dónaill's dictionary. Here is a list of recommended readings:  Panu Petteri Höglund 21:28, 7 Bealtaine 2006 (UTC)
I annulled your edits, because it has become quite obvious by now that you are not a bona fide editor, but a saboteur with some kind of personal grudge. Let it be known that you are not helping the language cause along. Panu Petteri Höglund 15:27, 8 Bealtaine 2006 (UTC)
Is it really such fun destroying other people's work? I cannot simply understand how anyone can be such a piece of damned nuisance. Panu Petteri Höglund 18:07, 8 Bealtaine 2006 (UTC)
Would you please stop murdering the grammar. Face it: it will take a long time before you are able to actually correct anything in an article written by me. Panu Petteri Höglund 19:22, 11 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Is é an rud a deir mo dhuine go raibh an méid seo: As it seems idle to try to get anything across to you in Irish, please take note of this: The unhappy fact is, that you do not have enough Irish to even add links without murdering the grammar. Please stop vandalizing my writings, because what you doing can only be called vandalism. ann "ar an chéad lá", díreach mar nach mbeinn tar éis iarracht i ndiaidh iarracht a dhéanamh chun teacht i dteagmháil leis roimhe sin féin. Is é an chuma atá ar an scéal nach bhfuil sé ag glacadh na headrána seo féin dáiríre.Panu Petteri Höglund 15:34, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
PS: Gabh mo leithscéal go gcuirfinn a leithéid de chunk mór téacs ar an leathanach seo, a Ghuliolopez. Ach mar a fheiceann tú féin, tá mo dhuine iontach roghnach ag tabhairt fianaise, agus bhí eagla orm go rachadh sé ag scrios an méid seo ar a "talk page" féin. Mar sin, b'fhearr liom é a chur i dtaisce anseo. Panu Petteri Höglund 15:56, 14 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion for consideration[athraigh foinse]
Alright lads - thanks for your comments above, and appreciate that you are both open to working this out. (Although I notice that we had another revert war on Na Ceithre Chúirteanna, Bono, Corcaigh in the meantime).
(And apologies CMALANT, my comment "May compromise on language" may be a bit strongly put, but it is possibly the most diplomatic way of representing PPH's perception.)
Anyway, the complaint/issue as I understand it is that, when CMALANT "links" to other articles, it may compromise punctuation, accents, and other indications of case or gender or otherwise. As an example, "Cursaí i gColáiste na hOllscoile" to "Cursaí i g[[Coláiste na hOllscoile]]".
To be fair to CMALANT, I think this issue is exacerbated by the fact that the wikipedia software (and therefore the linking conventions) don't always lend themselves easily to a language like Irish in which the word is spelled differently depending on usage/declention. Given that it was written primarily for english, where a convention for "linking" is easily managed, as case or gender or accent will rarely become an issue. For example: a link can easily be drawn to an article named "College" from sentence "Courses of the [[College]]" in english. However, in Irish, one is almost forced to "break" the language if linking an article named "Coláiste na hOllscoile" directly from sentence "Cursaí i gColáiste na hOllscoile".
That said, there are constructs in wikipedia protocol which allow for this. Namely, one can link WITHOUT interupting the language in the display with: "Cursaí i [[Coláiste na hOllscoile|gColáiste na hOllscoile]]".
Can we agree that, if CMALANT employed such an approach (with care), and linked exclusively in the tuiseal ainmneach, that his edits would be more acceptable? And, in return, PPH will be more open to links drawn to articles where language is not interupted and an tuiseal ainmneach and ginideach are not corrupted?
Guliolopez 12:49, 15 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
I have no problems with links which do not corrupt the usage. However, that is precisely the proposal I made him weeks ago, as you see in the above, and he never noticed it. Panu Petteri Höglund 12:56, 15 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
- That said, there are constructs in wikipedia protocol which allow for this. Namely, one can link WITHOUT interupting the language in the display with: "Cursaí i [[Coláiste na hOllscoile|gColáiste na hOllscoile]]".
- Interesting. For what it's worth, I always believed it was Vicipéid policy actively to exclude the eclipsis (and prefixed h's) from links in instances like that. I thought it was preferable to write "faoin gcumannachas" rather than "faoin gcumannachas", as I did in the article on Margaret Thatcher; likewise, "go hÉirinn" rather than "go hÉirinn", and "Poblacht na hÉireann" instead of "Poblacht na hÉireann" (and, for that matter, "Éireann" instead of "Éireann"). That was how it appeared to me when I first started contributing back in January, and I actually found it aesthetically preferable; indeed, I think I may even have "corrected" some links in certain articles in the past. Perhaps this is something that should be dealt with in the Lámhleabhar Stíle. Just adding my point of view, and sorry if this makes me seem a bit of a nuisance. I hope all the parties involved can resolve this satisfactorily. Le meas, An Piscín 13:30, 15 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
- A Phiscín, ní nuisance thú ar aon nós, tá tú ag déanamh jab maith ar fad, ós rud é gur féidir comhoibriú leat. Sin é an rud is tábhachtaí, sin é an rud freisin nach bhfuil foghlamtha ag CMALANT, agus dá réir sin, sin é an fáth nach bhfuil muinín agam as CMALANT a thuilleadh. Panu Petteri Höglund 13:50, 15 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
- Tá brón orm go bhfuil mé ag teacht isteach sa diospóireacht seo chomh déanach is an méid seo, ach tá mé i lár mo chuid scrúduithe faoi láthair -beidh mé ar ais ar an gCéadaoin seo chugainn. Thanks for mediating this Guliolopez, I hope no-one minds me commenting. Feictear domsa nach bhfuil ann ach míthuiscint - b'fhéidir nach raibh a fhios ag Cuir Mise gur féidir naisc phíopáilte a úsáid (.i. 'piped' links with a bar in the middle, as Guliolopez explained above), agus mar sin bhí sé (nó sí) ag déanamh leathanaigh athsheolta do na claochluithe éagsúla. I have a feeling that this was misinterpreted by others as very poor understanding of grammar/sabotage, compounded by not replying to several messages on his talk page.
- The majority of the links he has added have been positive contributions though; I really think we should try to move on from here, and I support Guliolopez's suggestions. As well as using piped links in preference to redirects (eg "Tíortha san [[An Afraic|Afraic]]"), can I also suggest making more use of the Réamhamharc (preview) button where possible, to avoid many small edits where one large one would suffice? This makes the Recent Changes page clearer and reduces strain on the databases.
- Maidir leis an bpointe sin a léiríonn tú, a Phiscín, aontaím go bhfuil sé riachtanach rialacha a scríobh sa Lámhleabhar Stíle - I personally agree with the guidelines as you've outlined them there, but of course if we don't have the stuff written down it's no use! These things were never fully fleshed out. Táim ag obair ar aistriúchán den lámhleabhar eagarthóireachta ach níl sé críochnaithe fós - an bhfuil éinne in ann cuidiú liom? Tá na bunleagain anseo ag an Vicipéid Béarla agus anseo ag Meta. -Gabriel Beecham 14:40, 15 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
One point I'd like to add, pointe eile fós[athraigh foinse]
I'd like to point out, too, that CMALANT has several times tried to change the wording in a subtle way, for example substituting "na Sé Chontae" for "Tuaisceart Éireann". I take this as the Republican POV-pushing his namesake on the English side of the fence has been accused of. Now, I do not have a principal objection against "na Sé Chontae" as an expression, and I tend to use it myself as a pure synonym of "Tuaisceart Éireann" just in order to avoid a flat and tedious style (although I admit that this is probably a flaw when you write an encyclopedia which is supposed to be standardized and "flat" in style). But what I do object to in CMALANT's attempts is, that, his understanding of the Irish language and grammar being, to put it mildly, less than subtle, this kind of tinkering always leads to the collapse of grammar and syntax when he is at it, and adds nothing to the informational content. I have several times tried to point it out to him, that if he has something to add to the informational content of an article, I am very happy to work it into the article in a grammatically correct way, if he points facts, features, and URLs out to me on the talk page. He never answered.
There is also the fact that he tries to add links to pages that are about things he knows nothing about. What I mean is: If I write a page about the history of Sweden, it will quite probably include the place-names Trondhjem and Fredrikshald. Now, if you know anything about Nordic history, you know that these places are not so called anymore - today, they are called Trondheim and Halden, respectively. So, I'll add links such as [[Trondheim|Trondhjem]] and [[Halden|Fredrikshald]]. I would like to be able to rely on it, that CMALANT won't change these into [[Trondhjem]] and [[Fredrikshald]] respectively, just because he deigns to have the feeling or intuition that my links are somehow bad or wrong. The problem is, I can't rely on it. I have got the impression that this link-adding thing is rather about his need to feel he is doing something worthwhile, and the fact is, that most of his links on my pages tend to be useless and uninformed, partly because he is ignorant of or careless about correct Irish grammar, and partly because he is, to put it bluntly, lacking in knowledge.
So, the problem is basically one of trust. I do not trust him. I do not trust his good intentions. And I am definitely not going to leave Vicipéid just because an ill-intentioned person is wilfully destroying my work. Panu Petteri Höglund 18:19, 15 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
"I am definitely not going to leave Vicipéid..." Tá seo níos-fearr ná "him or me". Tá dóchas againn fós. Is é an fadhb atá agam go bhfuil Panu ag scriseadh naisc ar ailt nach bhfuil athrú ar bith ar an gramadach, in ainm "gnáthcleachtais". Cá bhfuair sé/sí seo?
Cuir Mise An Locht Ar Na Tuistí 10:39, 16 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Is é an fhadhb atá agat go bhfuil tú ag déanamh dochair don ghramadach le stainc orm. Níl tuiscint cheart agat don ghramadach, agus níl fonn ort feabhas a chur ort. It begs the question, cad é an rud faoin spéir atá tú a dhéanamh ar Vicipéid na Gaeilge ach sabaitéireacht. Panu Petteri Höglund 10:45, 16 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
And again he reverted a page (Na Ceithre Chúirteanna) where he had destroyed the grammar (for example, that jarring way of his to put a fleiscín into superlative constructions, like "is-fearr", "is-mó" - it can be only his invention, his POV regarding the Irish grammar, because nobody else ever uses it). His idea of correct Irish grammar is so shaky, and his will to tinker with the wording so great, that I already depend on it as a matter of principle that all his edits, no matter how bona fide, will include some similar stupidity. This is precisely what I mean when I say that I do not trust him, and this is why I revert his edits as a matter of routine before adding new content, and recommend this routine to everybody else. Nobody else has ever vandalized my grammar in any way, but to him this kind of vandalism seems to come unintentionally.
The fact is - and I am positive nobody contests this - that my command of Irish is, due to a ten-year-long intensive self-tuition and research in Gaeltacht Irish writings, vastly superior to his. If he wants to learn better Irish and stop sabotaging, then he will ask me nicely what exactly is wrong with his Irish, or take the trouble of reading some of the good books I have read and recommended - to him. He has never even tried this approach, presumably because he couldn't care less. As you see above, I have several times explained to him what exactly was wrong with his grammar. He never paid any heed, but continues to actively reproduce the same grammatical errors. Panu Petteri Höglund 10:58, 16 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Interestingly enough, in our little "revert war" he never tries to insert the same links into the grammatically correct version. Instead, he reverts to the grammatically incorrect version. If it were really about links, and nothing personal, he would understand that it is much easier to insert the links - the [] signs - into the grammatically correct texts, than restore the grammar around his new links. So, it is not really about links. It is some personal grudge of his, or he is wilfully sabotaging the grammar. Besides, if I do restore the grammar after he has attacked the page, he'll tinker with it again. So, this link thing is just an excuse.
And yes. It is still me or him. Considering that he seems to be the same person who was banned from the English-language wiki for POV-pushing, I do not see why we should give him free rein to destroy everything here. His "contribution" is entirely destructive and irritating. Panu Petteri Höglund 11:08, 16 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Please take note that CMALANT didn't heed your council to introduce piped links. Instead, his tactics is to introduce a host of new redirect pages for every conceivable declination form or orthographic variant of a word or a name - Airt Uí Ghríobhtha, Art Ó Gríofa, Art Ó Gríobhthaigh and so on. I reckon this means more strain on the servers than the piped links. Are you guys not seeing a pattern here - that he is ar nós cuma liom about the language and the community, and that he is dochomhairleach as Seán Bán Mac Meanman would say - that he does not listen to well-meaning counsels? Panu Petteri Höglund 11:59, 16 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
CMALANT actively introducing substandard grammar and orthography[athraigh foinse]
One example of CMALANT's tinkering was, that on the page about Adyghe language (which I haven't, actually, ever touched myself - I need to improve the grammar), he changed "sa Rúis" into s[[an Rúis]] in order to make the linking easier for himself. Now, we all should know that "sa Rúis" is standard, but "san Rúis", although not strictly wrong, is definitely not standard (the fact that it never occurred to him to use the somewhat archaic, but at least elegant possibility "ins [[an Rúis]] only shows how little he knows or cares). I just want to ask: why should we tolerate this sort of thing, at all? Panu Petteri Höglund 12:41, 16 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)
Vicipéid's bad image among established Gaeilgeoirí[athraigh foinse]
I'd like to add that being a member of the Gaelic-L e-mail list since 1995, I have had the opportunity to find out about how fluent mainstream Irish-speakers feel about Vicipéid. The prevailing attitude is surprisingly, shockingly negative and even tarcaisniúil - derisive. The reason is, that people have come here and done some edit - and found their job soon destroyed by some over-zealous busybody who has only a very shaky idea of the language. Who was that busybody? I have my suspicions.
The fact is, Vicipéid is never going to thrive if people like CMALANT are allowed to have their way. This project could be a great asset to the language if we could enlist more fluent speakers. But they won't come, they won't go anywhere near us. Why? Because they think CMALANT is all there is to Vicipéid. Panu Petteri Höglund 12:51, 16 Meitheamh 2006 (UTC)